From Tom Degeneffe

The class discussion last Sunday (ch. 14) was so challenging and informative! I only wish that we had the time to delve into all of the application questions that this chapter raises! What really strikes me as being crucial in applying this teaching is the discernment necessary to determine whether a particular issue falls into the category of liberty / opinion, thus the instructions of this chapter apply ... or ... does it come under the instruction of I Corinthians 1:10; II Thess. 3:14-15; II John 9 etc. and is thus a fellowship issue. Kirk brought up the probability that the believers in Rome were meeting in several small house churches, yet the Spirit addressed them as a united body and this chapter instructs them to receive each other without passing judgement on differences of opinion. This principle must have some relevance in our culture, where many localized groups of believers meet together for worship and are engaged in the discovery of God's word and how it applies to them, coming to differing conclusions in many matters. What an intense level of mature, loving discernment is necessary to determine how to respond to this situation without compromising truth, yet not allowing division with those who are also accepted by the Father.

From Wes Seymour

(**Edited note: So sorry it took me so long to publish this post. Wes sent this to me when we were studying Chapter 13, and life just got in the way of a timely post. Sorry!!)

really bummed i had to miss the discussion in class last week (Chapter 13), the beginning of this chapter has been a big point of interest to me for a long time. in college i read a book on the differences of major religions, and the "human" reasoning or explanations behind them. when the author came to Christianity, he claimed that the real reason the word of christ spread so quickly throughout the region was because the leaders of the roman government at the time secretly wanted and encouraged it to. not because they were believers in christ, but mainly for the content and instructions in the first half of this chapter. to obey all laws of the government, that they were actually placed into power by god himself to enforce his will, to pay taxes, and not rebel against them. that their reward is in the life after this one ... to even embrace suffering and even persecution! that always made alot of sense to me.

on another note i love vs 8 "let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another." wow that one is totally getting highlighted!

From Joel McWaters

Romans 11
How often times do you look at the modern world and think "Am I really in that much of a minority? Are there so few?" I get very frustrated sometimes at the individuals in our country that want freedom in all aspects of life, for all people... except when it comes to me having my faith. It's not enough for them to not believe, but they also want to make it wrong for me to believe what I believe. And yet, it isn't as bad as what Elijah had to endure. How much has changed in the 2500+ years since Elijah? How often to we hear of someone "worshipping in their own way?" I think of Esther. She was the queen chosen by the king, to the kings pleasure, and yet she took her life into her hands approaching the King when he had not asked for her.

From Wes Seymour

i have such mixed feelings and opinions on the topic of god "hardening" people and their hearts, and what that really means. question 3 asks if god hardens righteous people. my first thought has always been that this has something to do with god manipulating the mind or choice a person has, but does that mean god has taken away the individuals free will at that point? at first i really didnt like the idea of that perspective, but maybe he has. maybe he actually did descend a spirit upon pharoah or the Israelites during the example with elijah. a spirit that didnt allow them to see, or hear, or feel god. maybe at that point god no longer gave them a choice, he had just had enough. there are examples of him striking people dead for only one lie. why couldnt he just make the decision that this person no longer gets a choice, im done with them.

does god harden righteous people? this chapter (11) gives an example where he reserved a group of 7000 that must have been pretty righteous to be chosen, but he hardened king saul a few times i think. and he was a righteous man. for a while anyway.

From Wes Seymour

vs 26 and 27 are interesting. sometimes i find myself praying without words ... because i just don't have the words in my mind to use. but i feel like god knows what is on my mind or heart. these two verses are just really neat to me.

From Mark Kercheville

Hi, Romans class. As you read and study this week on Ch. 7, ask yourself the question, "Is Paul in vss. 14-25 speaking of the man before he is in Christ and how he struggles to keep the law perfectly, or is he speaking about the Christian who does have the justification by faith and still struggles with sin?" Maybe any who would like could blog about this with one another during the week while I'm gone to Outdoor Ed. Have a great week in the Lord, everyone. :)

Mark

From Wes Seymour

is living in sin, or being a slave to sin, a "state of mind" ?? or is it by the works we do? or a compilation of both?

does that end when we make the conscious decision to be baptized? ... and after that, when we sin through-out our christian lives are we living in christ with just a few blips in the road here and there? ... and if we decide to turn our backs to Christ again and go back to living in sin is it as simple as that? ... just as simple as repentance to go back to living with Christ?

From Wes Seymour

this is a much heavier book than i expected. i think i could end up taking this class twice and still not grasp all of it.

in chapter 5 vs 3-5 paul talks about how we should rejoice in our suffering because suffering produces perseverance; perseverance, character, and character, hope. and hope does not disappoint us because god has poured out his love into our hearts by the holy spirit.

what an incredible relationship paul had with god. i know god allowed paul to suffer so much for his name, to the point where mark had mentioned last week he may have even been stoned to death at one point and god still said "im not done with you yet pal, get back up"...not to mention the prison time and running from those who were constantly trying to kill him. paul had suffered so much in gods name. paul was a living testimony of himself as the type of perseverance that suffering could create. and the amazing character that was the outcome.

i think it was a perfect understanding between a master and his servant. how amazing would it be to suffer so much in the name of god, not only knowing that there is reward awaiting you in heaven, but also on earth as god continued to pour his holy spirit into paul by allowing him to spread the word everywhere he went.

From Amy Quinliven

Tonight while reading I could not stop reading over 6:15. Particularly "...much more did the grace of God AND the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many."

WOW! It poured grace out even more to realize that the trinity is being presented here (at least that's what I got from it). Not only by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ...but also by the grace of God (who of course is also Jesus Christ; however, there are two here based on the "and").

Mark, can you correct me or add to this if I'm not right in saying this? I also have a question regarding a Christian who falls. Does grace still abound should a Christian who falls into great sin repent again? I think that's what discourages Christians while reading Romans because they feel as though they're not given this grace. At least that's what I've come across with discussions. Maybe you can help me out with this one.

Thanks!

From Teri Rowe

I was able to listen to a recording of Sunday's class. I am pondering question 5 because it wasn't addressed in class.
Q 5: Is justification by faith unconditional? If not, what does it mean to be justified "freely?"

No, I don't believe justification by faith is unconditional. Vs 31 (NIV) says, "Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather we uphold the law." So the condition is we are still accountable to uphold the law. You cannot have one (faith) without the other (the law).
Being justified "freely" to me means that we did not have to physically do anything to be justified, or declared innocent, by God. It was given to us freely by God. We don't have to sacrifice something, or ourselves, or our children, in order to be justified. That was already done for us through Christ. Also, we have free will to accept the gift given to us, it's not forced upon us. It's ours to take or not. Now that I'm thinking about all of this I think this was discussed by Mark and maybe it wasn't obvious that it was question 5. :) Such an awesome class!

From Jenny Kreil

I thought yesterday's class was outstanding! I had never heard that the word propitiation is the same word used for the mercy seat in the Old Testament. The imagery of blood covering the Law is profound and powerful. I love those moments when I'm struck by the complexity and simplicity of God's plan.

From Teri Rowe

I was thinking about the "boasting in the Law" question after this morning's discussion. If I understand the question right I feel one of the problems of a Jew "boasting in the Law" is that an imperfect Jew puts himself on the same level as God, the perfect, sinless, creator of the law. It also takes away their accountability for their sins if and if we do the same today it takes away our accountability for our sins. God is perfect and we are not. Jesus said in Matthew 5:48, "Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect."

From Mark Kercheville

Hello, class.

As you study this week, I want you all to carefully look at 2:9-13 in comparison with 3:10-18 with the view of reconciling both these passages together. In order to fully understand Paul's point in chapter 2, what does he mean when he says "glory and honor and peace to every man who does good" in 2:10 and later in 3:12 he says "there is none who does good." It may help you to remember that Paul speaks from the point of view of the Jew in chapter 2. Also, as you read and study chapter 2, read again chapter 1 with chapter 2 to help you get the sense of his words. May God bless you with wisdom in your study.

Love, Mark

From Lee Scott

Hello Canyon Classmates.

Years ago I took the Romans class taught by a great brother from Seattle, Washington, Lowell Williams. In the opening remarks, he made a statement about the importance of learning and understanding this great NT book. I don't remember if he was quoting someone else or if this was an original but he said, "If you get Romans, God - Gets - You."

From Wes Seymour

ok, so i have often pondered .. (yeah i said "often pondered" so wut?) the answer to question 5. as far as vs. 20 goes, it seems to state that all men should know god as "the creator" since the time of creation, because his "invisible" qualities are "clearly seen".??? those qualities being: his eternal power, and divine nature. hmmmm seems like an oxymoron to me.

so a muslim, hindu, heathen, atheist, etc. really have no excuse for either denying his existence or not giving him due credit for his creation. yet many do in some form or another i guess. im pretty sure Muslims believe in god as their creator though i could be wrong and Hindus worship cows or something ... i really dont know. but the verse seems to say that none have any excuse to deny the power of god because the "invisible" writing is "clearly seen" on the wall.

so where my pondering comes in, is around undiscovered north and south America where we find the native people (i.e. Aztecs) worshipping many separate gods from the sun and moon god, to the god of corn etc. and it wasn't until Christianity was introduced to them by the early settlers or pillagers whatever u want to call them, that god came into their picture. had these savage, war hungry, human sacrifice to their gods, type people clearly seen but stubbornly ignored gods invisible qualities of eternal power and divine nature for a simple desire to serve more convenient gods that they could see or touch?

so all that rambling (and btw if any of u are cultural anthropology majors im sure i sound double idiotic) to ask this question:
how were the invisible qualities of eternal power and divine nature so clearly seen in plain to everyone that Paul (or god) would say that its totally inexcusable to believe anything else?

From Mark Kercheville

Hello, Romans class students! I would love to hear your impressions/thoughts/comments after reading the book of Romans in one or two sittings. Here is one of my comments: I am so taken by the universal message that Paul writes in this letter. There is no one anywhere in the world who would not be reached by this great gospel or could ever honestly think that God was not interested in his/her soul.

I have also attached an e-copy of the Romans material and the Introduction if you ever need it.

(Jenny's note: Blogger won't allow attachments. If you would like the copies Mark mentioned, please email me or Mark and we can forward it to you. Sorry.)

Welcome!

Hi Canyon family! Welcome to the blog developed for Mark Kercheville's Romans class. Please check back often and join in the discussion.

There are two ways to leave your thoughts on this blog:

If it is a new thought for us to discuss, please email the text you want posted to thekreils@yahoo.com. (The Blogger system will only allow the author of the blog to publish new posts. I will not be moderating or editing posts and comments, but simply posting everyone's ideas.)

If you would like to comment on someone else's ideas, simply click the "comment" button at the bottom of the post. A window will pop-up in which Blogger will want you to create a Blogger ID. This is just your email address and a password you create. This will allow you to publish comments on this blog.

Don't forget to read through the entire book of Romans at least once this week. Then specifically read Chapter 1 and answer the questions in the class packet.

Check back soon!